Episode Transcript
[00:00:20] Speaker A: Welcome to Infinite Human where we explore our limitless potential through conversations with guests who have achieved greatness, overcome challenges and work to find their purpose. We aim to share and inspire you to do the same.
I'm your host, Shona Kerr. I'm a college coach, professor and businesswoman who is eager to learn from and sharing the wisdom of others with you and onto the Called the world's best blind golfer by cnn, Jeremy Poinsonneau went on to win three world championships and nine national championships, working interdependently with his father for visual support on the golf course.
Now an international keynote speaker to major organizations, Jeremy joins us today to talk about his journey from being fully sighted and studying international business to very quickly losing his sight and having to renavigate his entire world.
What is inspiring are the lessons he had to fast learn in terms of interdependence and the gratitude he now has for the subsequent opportunities losing his sight presented.
There are real lessons in this episode that all of us can use to be more successful in our day to day lives.
A true professional and genuine to the core. It is impossible not to be positively affected by Jeremy and onto the show.
Welcome Jeremy, to Infinite Human. This is an absolute treat to have you here today.
[00:02:03] Speaker B: Oh, it's a treat for me to be here. Thank you.
[00:02:04] Speaker A: Shanna, talk to us. Jeremy, where are you from? We know your first 19 years were inverted commas, normal sighted and we'd love to hear how that was for you.
[00:02:17] Speaker B: Yeah, very normal. I grew up in sunny San Diego. Life was great. I'm the oldest of three.
I have great parents. I just had a really good normal life. Went through high school here in San Diego, graduated and then went off to San Diego State. And I was a good golfer growing up. Maybe could have played D2 or D3, but I wanted the D1 college experience and went to San Diego State and got that college experience, joined a fraternity, had a great freshman year and the sophomore year was on the same trajectory and everything was going swimmingly. So life was was pretty awesome up until 19, that's for sure.
[00:02:54] Speaker A: What were you looking to study at university? What were you studying?
[00:02:58] Speaker B: I was studying international business. And San Diego State has a really good international business program and that required studying abroad at some point during your your time in college. And that was the plan. So I speak fluent French, my dad's from France, so it was international business with French connection. And the plan was to study that, study abroad and potentially work in the golf industry at some point.
[00:03:20] Speaker A: Got it. How did you get into Golf?
[00:03:22] Speaker B: Yeah. My dad, like I said, came from France. He came over here as an engineer to work for TaylorMade Golf. He worked in research and development there. Met my mom who was working in marketing at TaylorMade. And he was supposed to only be in the States for a two year stint. Met my mom and has been here ever since. And he did 10 years at Taylor, made 10 years at Cleveland Golf, 10 years at Callaway Golf was in the industry for over three decades. And I was introduced to the game through him. He was always playing with friends every Friday. And as a young boy, you see your dad going off with his golf clubs, you go, where's he going? What's he doing? I want to do that.
So I had to kind of get lessons, learn the game and then as you know, know, play smaller courses and learn the etiquette and those types of things. And then finally it got to a point where I can play with dad.
And so I played with my dad every Sunday from when I was 12 till I was 17.
That was our thing. Every Sunday, dad and I played golf. My other siblings don't love the game at all. So I was, I was the golfer alongside my dad. And that was, that was our thing together. And we, we developed a really strong friendship and bond as a father son duo. I mean, I have friends who are intimidated by their fathers. I'm not. I respect the heck out of my dad, but we have a very buddy, buddy relationship. I think through being on the golf course and the banter we would have. So I was introduced to the game through him and, and I'm still obsessed with the game today.
[00:04:48] Speaker A: What a treat to spend every Sunday doing that with your dad.
[00:04:51] Speaker B: It really. And the older I get, the more I realize how much of a treat it was then. And I'm still lucky to play with him now, but not as often as we did then.
[00:04:59] Speaker A: Right, right. And actually experiencing the banter on the course would have been helpful too. That, that humanizes everything, doesn't it? I mean, big time, you're with your dad, you can't be intimidated. If you're gonna, you know, that's part of the game.
[00:05:14] Speaker B: It's part of the game. You gotta razz him. I expect it back. I think that's one of the fun things about golf that maybe doesn't get talked about a lot is like the, when I meet golfers who are as into golf as I am, you realize they're as, they're quick witted, they have a good banter, good sense of humor and you know, there's not you don't take yourself too seriously. So it's, it's a fun. I love that part of golf as well.
[00:05:36] Speaker A: In terms of golfers, you're growing up with your father, you're playing every Sunday. Were you good?
[00:05:41] Speaker B: I was good. I played three years varsity in high school. I got down to about a three handicap. My lowest round sided one time in 18 holes. I shot a 68 on a par 72 golf course. That's my only under par round in 18 holes. Shot even par multiple times. But was was good but not great.
And in Southern California, there's a lot of really good golfers out there.
[00:06:05] Speaker A: So at 19 years old, everything changed for you. You're at university and you started to lose your sight, which I cannot imagine what that would have been like. Please talk us through that.
[00:06:18] Speaker B: Yeah, everything was going great, Everything was heading in the right direction and I had to squint to read a sign. At one point as a 19 year old sophomore in college and thought I needed glasses because some of my fraternity brothers need glasses. So hey, it's my turn. Okay, that's fine. And basically in two months, my sight went from perfect 2020 where I was driving and everything was normal to where it is today. And I lost all my central vision, rendering me legally blind. And I have complete peripheral vision, but I'm not able to read, drive or distinguish faces anymore due to a rare genetic disorder I didn't know I had.
[00:06:57] Speaker A: That's crazy. And what is the genetic disorder?
[00:07:00] Speaker B: It's an acronym is L, H O N. Stands for labor's hereditary optic neuropathy. Extremely rare. About a hundred people in the US are diagnosed with it each year and unfortunately it has no treatment and no cure.
[00:07:14] Speaker A: That's insane.
[00:07:15] Speaker B: Well, it's actually one. One in 50,000 is the only a hundred in the US are diagnosed with it every year, but it's about one in 50,000 have it.
[00:07:24] Speaker A: Okay. Wow.
[00:07:25] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:07:27] Speaker A: So. So you were at university, you had your plans for international business and obviously that dysfunctioning within the university had to change. Did you go home? Was there a long spell where you were trying to figure this out?
[00:07:42] Speaker B: Yeah, it was basically happening towards the end of the fall semester. So it was basically Thanksgiving time when it happened.
The day I saw the optometrist was the day before Thanksgiving, Thanksgiving Day. I got an MRI done because he originally thought I had a brain tumor. And basically my medical mystery tour began then.
So I was taking five classes at that time in that semester and I took incompletes in all those classes, which Basically allows you a year to finish them. And yeah, I was kind of searching and honestly, at that point I was kind of thinking I wanted to drop out of school and, and just say, you know what? I'm just gonna take a break. This is a lot to deal with just in life. I don't know if I want to even deal with school.
So it kind of happened during winter break and then friends were finishing finals for that fall semester, and I didn't do those at that time because I was trying to get a diagnosis. Yeah, then, then next semester was going to roll around and I had, I had a really close friend who said, hey, if you come back to school and just take two easy classes, do a small course load, like, I'll take those two classes with you in my five class schedule.
And that's what he did. That was my, it was my close friend Josh. And that, that made me say, you know what? I'm thinking about dropping out, but at least I'll give it a shot. And if, if it's too hard, if it's too much to deal with, I'm done.
I could always at least try and then drop out rather than just drop out right away. But I, I gave it a shot with Josh and that, that, that offer from him fundamentally changed my life for the better.
[00:09:14] Speaker A: Yeah, well, we're talking about turning points. That's a turning point. I can readily see that as you're saying it. And good for him for stepping up and offering to do that. And I think it obviously plays into the interdependence aspect that we'll get into in a little bit. And maybe that was the first glimpse of that side of life for you. How did you do in those classes?
[00:09:37] Speaker B: Well, I talk about it in my speeches where I say the two classes I took were Intro to Music and Intro to Film. And I'm like, it was a really easy course load, but hey, Intro to Film for a blind guy was actually a lot tougher than I thought it would be. Especially when the first day the professor walks in, he says, hey, welcome to Intro to Film. The if you really want to appreciate cinema, you got to understand the best films are silent films. Here's an hour and a half of Charlie Chaplin. And I was like, you got to be kidding me. Just, I'm just sitting there and can't see the screen, can't hear anything. That was rough.
But I, I, I did fine. I passed the classes because Intro to Film and Intro to Music are easy classes to pass. But the, but Josh helped me Walk to and from class.
He helped me tell the professors that I was legally blind and needed accommodations. And he helped me study for the exams in the classes to eventually pass those classes. So just the walking to and from class, which pre sight loss was easy, now it became extremely hard. I can't tell the difference of the room numbers and which building. I have an idea of which buildings are which, but if I have to go up to the third floor, going to an elevator and then having to click the button, do I. So everything just became more monumental than it was pre sight loss, that's for sure.
[00:10:52] Speaker A: And not even just walking to class. I'm sure just eating would be difficult.
[00:10:58] Speaker B: Literally everything was more difficult. Like crossing the street.
Yeah, crossing the street on my own.
Or Josh and I were social guys, pre sight loss. And we, we'd be walking to class and someone say, hey, Josh. Hey, Jeremy. And I'm like, oh man, I don't know who it is. Someone would tell me later that they walked by me and waved and I didn't wave back, so they thought I was being rude. And so not everyone knew about my sight loss at that point. So I was extremely uncomfortable in my own skin and was just kind of mortified through that. That semester was a very challenging semester for me, socially, developmentally, whatever. It was just, it was very. It was a very tough time.
[00:11:37] Speaker A: I guess it will point out to you everything that you've taken for granted.
[00:11:41] Speaker B: Until that moment, big, big time, 100%. Everything that, you know, everything that was easy before became extremely difficult now. And yeah, like you said, I. I took crossing the street on my own for granted. I took driving for granted. I took, you know, just, just normal social interactions for granted. And now all of that was extremely difficult and uncomfortable and at times embarrassing.
[00:12:08] Speaker A: I can see that. And so you did make it through the two classes, which was great.
And you learned more in that semester outside of those classes than in the classes. I'm certain, 100%. So we get through that. And then do you decide maybe this is too difficult? Did you finish?
[00:12:30] Speaker B: I. I did finish the next semester. I did two classes towards the major and didn't quote, unquote me. Josh was like, okay, that catapulted me to go, okay, I can take a smaller course load, but actually take classes that are helpful towards getting a major. I did change my major from international business to business management with an emphasis in entrepreneurship and I minored in French.
But I, I didn't want to study abroad anymore. I was, I was struggling so much in Southern California In a place where I spoke the language and knew the campus already, that I was petrified to go to a foreign country where I spoke the language but not extremely well and didn't know the area. So I changed the major so I didn't have to study abroad. But I took two classes towards the major, then the next semester, three, then worked my way up to four and did that to continue on and graduate.
[00:13:25] Speaker A: Well, that's highly impressive.
[00:13:27] Speaker B: Well, thank you.
[00:13:28] Speaker A: I appreciate most people would have. Would have probably taken a larger break in there. Perhaps that was, that was good in a way. You kept going. Clearly determined.
[00:13:37] Speaker B: Yeah, for sure.
[00:13:39] Speaker A: How did you start to make that adjustment mentally? Did you receive any help with that or were you flying solo?
[00:13:48] Speaker B: Never flying solo. I don't think flying solo is ever anything that's something I would recommend. I don't think it's all that's cracked out to be flying solo. So I'm. I have a. An omnipresent mom who's very helpful in a lot of ways. And she found a blind psychologist at the San Diego center for the Blind, which was only about three blocks from San Diego State's campus.
And she told me that she'd like me to go see this blind psychologist. And I said, ah, mom, I'm not really interested. I appreciate it, but I'm okay. I've got friends, I can talk to them. And she said, I'd like you to give it a shot and afterwards we can go get sushi for lunch. And I was like, well, I like sushi and you keep pushing this, so I'll appease you too. And so I went and saw Dr. Bob, who was in his 60s and he was totally blind and he lost his sight due to diabetes in his early 30s. And in our first session, for an hour, for 55 minutes, we talked sports, we talked San Diego State basketball, we talked football, we talked baseball, we talked everything. And then in the last five minutes, he used the B word on me and said blind. And at that time I told my family, we can't use the B word. Like, don't, I don't want to talk about it. But he did. And we talked about it for five minutes. And then every session after that, we talked about it more and more and more. But he provided me with a lot of perspective because there I was, 19 years old and complaining about a central blur to a guy who's a doctor. He's, he's a psychologist and he's married, he has kids and he's totally blind.
And I, I had A hard time complaining about a central blur to a guy who's totally blind and laughing and jovial and just an incredible human being. So he provided me with a lot of perspective and helps me out tremendously. And I think in the moment I didn't realize how much he was helping me, but I think we kind of all have this hindsight ability to realize obviously, the dots looking backwards, how he.
He was. He was. He was a catalyst for me as well.
[00:15:44] Speaker A: Are you still in touch with Dr. Bob?
[00:15:46] Speaker B: I was for. For a good period of time. He unfortunately passed away maybe five years ago, but I. We would chat every so often. I would give him a call and his voice recognition was impeccable. I would call him and he'd immediately know who I was. And yeah, I loved him, Loved him and love him dearly. He was. He was a big catalyst for me and a role model and inspiration for sure.
[00:16:11] Speaker A: I mean, that was genius on your mother's part. It was so sharp lady. So then, okay, we made it through university.
At what point did the idea of blind golf occur?
[00:16:26] Speaker B: Yeah, so let's go back to the smart lady of my mom. I gotta tell you that she grew up in Michigan in the beginning of her life, but her family moved to Connecticut and she lived in Connecticut for maybe for a good period of time of her life. And then she went on to Princeton for her undergrad. So she is a very smart lady. And after I lost my sight, I thought I had to give up the game of golf because it's a very visual sport. And my mom came up to me one day, she was doing research online and she found the usbga, the United States Blind Golf association, and found out that these golfers playing tournaments all over the world. And so she had in her mind, oh my goodness, like, Jeremy could play in national championships, world championships. Like, this is. This is exactly what he needs. And she brought it to my attention one day and told me about it. And I. I laughed. I was like, mom, no, you got to be kidding. There's. There can't be such a thing.
I didn't. I thought she was joking. But there is such a thing. And there's tournaments all over the world. You can't go drop me off the lot, the local golf course and say, go have fun. I'd be lost.
But every blind golfer has a guide, someone who helps them out on every single shot. And for me, that was an easy choice. My dad.
My dad is my guide in every competitive round of blind golf. We play in and we've. We've done pretty well together. And it's.
Again, it's, it's another kind of. We're talking about all these catalysts. But Josh helped me get back into school. Dr. Bob helped me with my mental health, and blind golf really helped me find my, my passion again. And, and the ability to keep pursuing the passion that I had pre sight loss is pretty unbelievable. Like, if I was, unfortunately, if I was a pilot pre sight loss, it'd be pretty hard to say, hey, Jeremy, we found the United States Blind Pilots association that, that wouldn't be good. But thankfully, the sport that I was obsessed with, pre sight loss, has a blind golfing community, which is shocking. And if you've never heard of it before, yeah, most people haven't. But to have found it post sight loss again, the smart lady that is, my mom, introduced me to that and I'm very lucky to have found it.
[00:18:24] Speaker A: Okay, talk me through the first time you're back on a golf course.
You've, you know, you've, you've laughed at your mom. You said, mom, that's nuts.
Again, she's right. She was right. She was right with Dr. Bob, she's right with the golf. How do you remember that first time in this new physical state?
[00:18:43] Speaker B: Yeah, so I, even though she found blind golf, and then I laughed her and she said, no, it's a real thing. And then my dad said, hey, I, I'd love to guide you if you're open to it. And I'm like, and this is like, too nice. Like, this is all too good. And I was still in a headspace where I was mad at the world and, and uncomfortable and in denial of what had happened. So it was a very somber time in my life. I was not happy about anything. And like, you should be like, oh, my gosh. Like, I have the ability to still play this game, but I wasn't taking it that way.
So I originally said, no, I'm not going to do it. Like, I don't want to embarrass myself. I don't. When I was a sighted golfer, my least favorite thing was slow play on the golf course. And to me, blind golf was the epitome of slow play. And so I was like, I just don't want to do that. And after a period of time and, and we were coming up on Christmas too, and my dad, pre sight loss had gotten me a new set of irons to give me for Christmas. And then I'd lost my sight, and he kind of had this moment of like, do I give them the clubs or not? And he did give me the clubs. And I was like, what are you doing? Like, you're.
This was. And this was probably even before my mom told me about blind golf. And I was like, you're dangling a carrot to a blind guy who can't even see the carrot. Like, this is. This is like a sick joke.
It was. I was like, dude, this is insult to injury. Like, I would have loved these clubs if I could still play.
So I was like, these are just going to collect dust. Like, thanks a lot.
But then at one point, I said, okay, dad, I'll go to the driving range with you.
There's no such thing as slow play on the driving range. Let's just go hit some balls. And I said, if I swing and miss a ball, I'm done. I'm not doing this. Okay? I'm not doing it. And I did not swing and miss. There's kind of like, we could ask the question of, if I actually did, would I have stopped? I don't know. But I didn't miss any. And some of them felt so good. And I believe in the movie Tin cup, the main character says, everybody has a tuning fork in them, and it goes off every time you hit a solid golf shot.
And for the pros, it's almost every shot. But as the amateur, some people who just get into the game, they might have that one shot around, but that feeling is so addictive. And on the driving range, I hit a couple where I was like, oh, my gosh, I. I can't see the flight of the ball at all. Once I make contact, the ball's gone. And I can somewhat see it on the ground with my peripheral vision, but not extremely clearly. But, man, I would hit some shots. I'm like, wow, that feels good. And so I said to my dad at one point, I said, okay, I'm willing to play a round of golf with you. Let's. Let's give it a shot. And we went to a public course. And the tough thing is I was shooting in the 70s, pre sight loss. And then all of a sudden, I now got to go play a course that I would normally shoot in the mid-70s, maybe high-70s on. And now I'm, I think, the first time post sight loss, my dad and I played a course that I would routinely shoot in the 70s on. I think we shot in 99 and, like, made a miraculous shot on the final hole to break a hundred by one. And it's like, oh, my gosh, that was great. But it was again, Somewhat embarrassing because I knew my. I had to really work on my expectations and managing my expectations post sight loss in a sport where I knew what I could shoot pre site loss. But all of a sudden it's like, yeah, I'm still Jeremy, but I'm a new Jeremy and I need to kind of change that. But that took a lot of time and practice to kind of learn a new set of expectations for myself.
[00:22:07] Speaker A: I guess it's almost like you've taken up a new sport. It is the same because you're swinging a club, you're hitting a ball, but the way you're approaching that sport is entirely different, you know?
[00:22:18] Speaker B: Yeah. So it's 100.
It's a new sport, and I'm a new person.
[00:22:23] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah. So massive variables. And you. And now you have a teammate.
[00:22:28] Speaker B: Yeah, I got a teammate who's my father, who we would. For all those years of my life. He'd play his ball, I play my ball. All of a sudden, now we're both working together, playing my ball.
But, man, is that, is that an experience? You know, my dad's my guide. He helps me on every shot. But everything he says to me is so interesting. I think, you know, it's something where I say, you know, if. If you were guiding me on the golf course, you could say the exact same thing as him verbatim. But I take it completely differently. If you're guiding me and I hit a shot, you say good shot. I say, thank you. My dad says, good shot. I say good shot. Why don't you say great shot? Why don't you love me? There's a lot of layers to it because it's my father. So it's a. It's a very nuanced approach. Very interesting experience sharing it with my dad. But there's. It's. It's. I take things differently from him, of course.
I think the things he said, he says to me, I take them more critically.
But there's no one I'd rather share the experiences with than him. So it's pretty darn cool.
[00:23:28] Speaker A: So those of us who are not familiar with blind golf or how it truly works, how does your father guide you to hit a shot? How do you judge distance? How do you judge slope, wind? There are so many variables to hitting one golf shot to encapsulate. And how does your father as a guide get you to that place to hit that good shot?
[00:23:53] Speaker B: Yeah, good question. We've. We've kind of worked on our approach throughout the years and changed it. But when we first started, he would tell me everything. He'd say, there's a bunker on the left side, then you got the fairway from here to here, then you got another bunker on the right, and then you got water right of that bunker. And we've worked on it to where Now I don't want to know all the trouble. We'll usually play a practice round before tournaments, so I'll, I'll see all the trouble on my own as we're kind of like going through the course and we'll pick out and practice rounds every hole, what club will hit off the tee. So that decision is already made for us.
But when we get to, let's say we get to the second hole and we've already played it and we know we're going to hit a hybrid off the tee, that decision's already made.
Then really, I, we kind of have the same routine. I'll do a practice swing, then he'll point in the direction we want to hit the shot.
I, I got an idea for the vicinity of where he's pointing. Obviously, it's not extremely specific. I know exactly where he's pointing, but it's like, okay, I know to look in that general direction when I step into the ball.
I step into the ball and then from behind, it's, it's kind of like a video game. He tells me to go right or left, and I move around the ball, right or left. And then when he says it's good, I hit the shot. And we do that the whole way around the course for chip shots. When we're really close to the green, I'll have him stand in between me and the hole because I'm unable to see the flag. I use him as a reference point.
So we'll know, hey, it's a 25 yard shot to the, the hole. We want to chip at 15 yards, let it roll out, and he'll stand in the direction where I want to hit it. So I line up to him, I say, he's good, he moves out of the way. I hit the shot. And then for putts, I'll walk it off and pace it with my feet. So I'll walk what is 10 paces or 10 yards so it's a 30 foot putt. And I'll say to my dad, hey, it's 10 paces uphill. Feels like it's breaking right to left. What do you see? He'll say, yeah, I see right to left. And I'll say, since it's uphill, should I play it 11 paces and he'll say, yeah, I like that. And he'll line me up and I putt that. And he gets a lot of blame, and I take a lot of credit. And it's. It's a. It's. That's. That's. That's a great thing about blind golf is I've got a scapegoat, which sighted golfers wish they had. But I can blame everything on my dad.
[00:26:08] Speaker A: Oh, well, I mean, I'm sure he's thrilled to be out there. Love the fact. I mean, they really boxed you into playing this.
[00:26:15] Speaker B: I know they did.
[00:26:17] Speaker A: You know, that you didn't actually have a choice.
[00:26:19] Speaker B: It's very true. It's very true. And in hindsight, I'm grateful for it. But in the moment, I was like, man, yeah, I don't think there's a way to get out of this.
[00:26:26] Speaker A: Right. And I see completely why you'd fight it. I can see the logic. And then to give you the clothes. Yeah.
[00:26:34] Speaker B: And then.
[00:26:34] Speaker A: Okay. Driving range had to come first. Let's.
[00:26:37] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:26:37] Speaker A: So went very incrementally here.
[00:26:40] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:26:42] Speaker A: Do other blind golfers have different approaches to the way you and your father take it on?
[00:26:49] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. Yeah. People do things completely differently. I mean, some golfers want to know everything. You can tell the difference between a new guide versus a seasoned guide, kind of how they approach it and what they tell their players or what they do with their players. And. And then there's different levels of blindness. So there's the B3s, which have better sight than me but are still legally blind. I'm a B2. And then there's the B1s, who are totally blind. They can't see a thing. So when I'm competing in tournaments, I'm really competing against the B2s. The B1s compete against each other. The B3s compete against each other. So there's kind of different approaches for each site category, too, because the B3s can see better than I can. So we'll be 50 yards out, and they can kind of see the flag. And I'm like, whoa, Yeah, I wish. And then the B1s can't see anything. So it's a. It's. It's an interesting dynamic, too, and kind of seeing how that all plays out.
[00:27:39] Speaker A: Fascinating. And when did you start playing tournaments? What was your first one?
[00:27:44] Speaker B: Yeah, first blind golf tournament. I think I lost a sight in, you know, winter of 2008. And I think first blind golf tournament was August 2009, and it was in California.
It didn't go very well.
A lot of bickering back and forth between my dad and me. And it was. Yeah, it was. It was. Then we played in our first national championship, October 2009, and then we played in our first World Championship in England in August 2010.
[00:28:12] Speaker A: Where else has this taken you? You mentioned there are tournaments all over the world.
[00:28:17] Speaker B: Yeah, we played in.
Played in England in 2010. Canada, 2012, Australia, 2014, Japan, 2016, Italy, 2018. 2020 was supposed to be the World Championship in South Africa, but unfortunately, because of COVID they postponed it and it wasn't played until 2023. And when it was playing, when it was played, then my second son was being born, so I didn't compete in that one.
And then there's a Blind Writer cup, it's called the Vision cup, that was started in 2013, and that's been played in Canada and Italy and Ireland.
I've also done events in China for golf and blind golf. So it's. It's taken me places that if. When I first lost my sight, you. If you said to me, hey, you're gonna go to these places because of, you know, your visual impairment and. And blind golf, I. I would think you're nuts. So it's. It's pretty crazy. 16 years post sight loss to be like, wow, this has done so many great things for me in my life, and I'm extremely grateful for all the things that I've been able to do. I'm very sitting here talking with you now. I'm very lucky. I'm very lucky.
[00:29:27] Speaker A: It's interesting when you're talking about giving up your semester abroad, I think you trumped that.
[00:29:33] Speaker B: Yeah, I think so too. I think so, too.
[00:29:36] Speaker A: You crushed that. You've literally spanned the globe in a way that I'm sure you felt a lot safer and.
And able to navigate.
[00:29:46] Speaker B: Yeah, big time. And I'm. I'd be more comfortable to do it now. Wasn't able. Wasn't comfortable to do it at 19, but I. My wife and I, before getting married, we lived in Paris together for a month. So I feel like that was good, too. And then she and I actually got married in Paris in 2018. So I. I agree. We. We trumped that and did it in a way that was more comfortable and beneficial for me.
[00:30:08] Speaker A: How'd you meet your wife?
[00:30:11] Speaker B: We met less than a year post site loss.
I. I was told by my neurophthalmologist in Los Angeles that I had to stop drinking alcohol, couldn't smoke or be around smoke of Any kind. And I was a 19 year old college fraternity member. Like, I was like, you told me I'm legally blind. I get that. What do you mean I can't drink or beer? Like, that's, that's very tough. And so I was like, okay. So I, I went to, we went to a. My fraternity went to a college football game at the Rose Bowl Stadium in Los Angeles. San Diego State was taking on ucla and we tailgated there. And before the game, my fraternity brothers were, let's say, participating in extracurricular activities. And I was off to the side talking with a fraternity brother, sitting down. And in my periphery, I saw a girl standing there and I stood up and I offered her my seat. Chivalry does exist and in Southern California. And I offered her my seat. She sat down and we started chatting. And within a minute I was talking with her. And I just kind of, I always in conversation with new people, I'm like, do they know I can't see? Do I need to tell them I can't see? Like, what do I. And it's kind of like if I know I'm going to have a long relationship with somebody or a friendship or I want to let them know as soon as possible, but if it's a passing interaction, I'm not going to tell the person at the grocery store I'm legally blind. If they say, hey, did you forget your glasses at home? I go, yeah, I did. But with her, like within a minute of talking, I said, hey, you know I'm legally blind, right? And she said, yeah, I did, but I didn't share it with too many people. But with her I felt extremely comfortable. And we started dating pretty soon thereafter. And we've been together for 15 years.
[00:31:46] Speaker A: Wow. And. And two children later.
[00:31:49] Speaker B: Two children later. Yeah. Two young boys now. And yeah, yeah. Very lucky again. Very lucky.
[00:31:57] Speaker A: A lot, a lot happened to you in that year.
[00:31:59] Speaker B: Year.
Big time. A lot happened to me in that year. And then another thing that I want to reference that Dr. Bob shared with me is he told me, jeremy, you know, now that you've lost your sight, I need you to focus on when you're trying to find a spouse or a partner. Like, you want to find an independent woman, you want to find an independent girl. And I was like, what? I didn't really know what he meant by that, but my wife Ellen, when I met her, I was kind of like, I think this is what he's referring to.
And I'm grateful that he taught me that because he's like, you Know, some women might be dependent and want you to drive them places or do things for them that you're not able to do now, being visually impaired, but find yourself an independent woman and that's not going to be a problem. And so when Ellen and I started dating, I'm very lucky. She is a very independent woman and our relationship has blossomed and done really well because she knows my limitations. She doesn't ask me to do things that I'm unable to do and. But I'm able to provide many things to the relationship. So I'm very lucky to have found an independent woman like her. And I also think had I not lost my sight, I wouldn't have been mature enough to date someone like her.
[00:33:11] Speaker A: Interesting. So you grew up quick.
[00:33:14] Speaker B: Exactly. I feel like I went for a big time. Yeah. Thank you, Dr. Bob. The life experience of losing my sight at 19, I feel like I, I grew up extremely quick. The conversations I was having with fraternity brothers, pre sight loss, post site loss, I was like, what are we even talking about here? So, yeah, I agree with you. I agree.
[00:33:31] Speaker A: Did you, did you. That's an interesting point you bring up. Did you then find a disconnect between you and your fraternity brothers? Did you drift a little bit?
[00:33:39] Speaker B: Some, yes. Some, some drifted because our priorities changed. Like I wasn't into the same things that they were still into, but some of my fraternity brothers, like Josh, our relationships got tighter and we had, we grew even stronger bond and connection post sight loss. So the quality with some got so much better and maybe the quantity went down some.
[00:34:04] Speaker A: Right. So the way I got connected with you was that you are now speaking, you are a renowned speaker and helping countless hundreds and thousands of others through your journey. And your main topic is interdependence. And you've so far mentioned your very close friend Josh, Dr. Bob, your mom, your dad. There's so many people that are in this to get you to where you are at.
I guess you had to learn the interdependence thing very quick.
[00:34:34] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:34:35] Speaker A: And then what? I guess how did you sort of quantify it in your brain? How did you get to that place going, you know what, this is a better way to be.
[00:34:46] Speaker B: Yeah.
So all those people you mentioned, my wife, it's something where we all go through the progression of being dependent as children and then we, we grow up and then become independent. And I think a lot of us think that that's the pinnacle and that's where we want to be, is just independent and just like gung ho independent. I Get things done on my own. I don't ask for help. That's, that's just the way.
And so I was very much like that when I was a 19 year old sophomore college. I'm this male fraternity member. Like I am independent. I'm not asking for help.
Then when I lost my sight, I became very dependent again and I kind of had to grow up a second time. So all of a sudden I'm now legally blind and dependent on everybody.
And I had to slowly regain my independence. And it was a process and a journey to now become this newly legally blind, independent Jeremy.
And I got to that point, but then I started to see that there was something beyond independence. And that's the power and the beauty of interdependence and realizing that I have a better connection and bond with Josh than I did pre sight loss.
He loved supporting me and helping me and others really enjoyed helping me. And I, and I realized I had to ask people for help more, to be more efficient, to get around better.
And before sight loss, I was petrified of asking people for help. Now I realize that asking for help is a strength and not a weakness. I think we've got it all wrong. We're all in our heads freaking out about asking others for help. But the way I like to think about it is if you flip roles like when someone asks for our help, I feel special, I feel wanted, I feel needed, I feel good. Positive feelings and emotions.
But when we want to ask someone for help, we feel like we're going to be a burden. We're less than, they're going to think differently of us. So we have these negative feelings, feelings and emotions.
So when we refrain from asking someone for help, we're robbing them, we're robbing them from feeling those positive feelings and emotions. We shouldn't do that. We need to get out of our own heads and offer to allow other people the ability to help us when needed. And I like to always say there's kind of the caveat. You got to ask the right people in the right way and at the right time. And if you can do that well, then I think you can really live a life of interdependence. And that's, that's, I think that's the pinnacle is the power of interdependence. It's beyond independence. It's realizing that we is better than me.
It's, it's this idea that, you know, we can always go further together than we ever can alone.
[00:37:33] Speaker A: Absolutely. And I couldn't agree with you more. I think helping others is the ultimate evolution of being human.
[00:37:40] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:37:41] Speaker A: It gives purpose. I think we all need purpose.
[00:37:44] Speaker B: Agree.
[00:37:45] Speaker A: And you're absolutely right. Somebody asks you for your help, I think as humans we're wired to want to help.
[00:37:51] Speaker B: Yeah, I agree.
[00:37:52] Speaker A: Do you think it's an American trait or even a Western world trait that this independence garners such importance?
You know, I wonder if there are other cultures where it's more celebrated to be interdependent. And I also think while we in America strive to be inverted commas, independent, none of us are independent.
[00:38:18] Speaker B: Right.
[00:38:18] Speaker A: If we actually think about our lives and everything we are actually completely dependent on, from the supermarkets having food on the shelf to there being gas at the gas station, to the clothing we wear, it just we seem a little self selective in saying, well, I'm independent because I function in this societal way that's been chosen for me. So do you think it's an American thing or are there other places in the world that you've discovered who respect this approach a little more?
[00:38:48] Speaker B: I think it is. I think it is an American thing, a western society thing. I think this capitalistic entrepreneurial idea is very independent and it's kind of like, you know, dog eat dog, you know, eat what you kill, go for it. I think, I think the way it's portrayed in movies and TV shows is very. And I think there's becoming a little bit of a shift in movies and TV shows of like, wow, no, asking for help is a good thing. And it's not like you face a challenge and go the next day, it's okay, I'm going to get through. It's like, well that's not realistic. So I agree with you. I think it is. I think when I think of other cultures, I think Japan is very interdependent. They understand that we is more important than me and they care about the collective more than the individual. And so I think they believe in this idea of interdependence more than America and the Western society. I think it's very independent. So I think you're definitely right with that.
[00:39:46] Speaker A: I was curious on your thoughts on that.
So now you are again a renowned speaker and.
And in fact offering was looking you up a little bit, offering some other experiences to folks to open their awareness.
What has it been like? What have been the high points for you?
[00:40:04] Speaker B: I'm very lucky. So yeah, I'm a professional speaker. I travel the globe giving keynote presentations which pre sight loss. I didn't even know that was a thing post sight Loss started doing talks to local groups and then at one point down the road I was featured on a TV show and someone reached out and said, hey, how much does Jeremy charge to give a talk?
And that really made me go, oh, okay, this is a thing. Okay, now I need to like work on that craft. And I've been doing it professionally now for over 11 years. And it's something where, yeah, I share my story, but as a speaker, you need to make it relevant to the audience because something I've learned is everybody's tuned into the same radio station and that's wiifm and it's the answer, what's in it for me?
So yeah, I'm up here on stage, Tony, I'm legally blind, but what's in it for them? So I have to share this idea of interdependence and break it down for them to make them realize that whether the CEO or just a manager or an intern, what does this idea of interdependence mean for them and their daily lives, personally and professionally? And like you said, the experiences that I provide as a blind golfer, I'll do some add ons where maybe I'll do a keynote and then afterwards play around a golf with executives, or I will stand on a tee box for a charity golf tournament and hit a drive for every single group that comes through and I'll have them guide me. And it's, it's fun because with the banter, if I had a good drive, I go, thank you, that was me. And if I had a poor drive, I go, you did a horrible job guiding me. Good thing you're only doing it once. Get out of here. So that's fun. And then another experience we offer is a dining in the dark experience.
And that's something that I was introduced to once, but now we help do it too, where I'll do a keynote and then afterwards we'll all have a meal together where we dine in the dark and they dim the lights, everybody puts on blindfolds and for at least an hour you're blindfolded while having a three course meal. And people are petrified by it. A lot of people don't like it, it's very uncomfortable. But how often do you get to do things that you've never done before?
And the idea of really putting yourself in someone else's shoes, I tell them, hey, I'm uncomfortable too. This is B1 World. I'm not totally blind, but I'm going to dine with you while being fully blindfolded. But I think there's always this, like, first 10 minutes of very awkward, uncomfortable feeling. But then you kind of break through this wall, and then you start to realize, okay, not only can I not see, I know everybody on my table can't see as well.
I feel like the conversations become deeper, the quality of the conversations become better because you're less worried about your physical appearance, what others look like. You just go right into the conversation. And the depth of the conversation is pretty awesome. So that's an experience that I always love partaking in.
[00:42:58] Speaker A: How do you see people or how do you experience people adapting to that? Because I can see the first, like you say, the first 10 minutes. Nobody has a clue how to operate. And then do people end up doing different things? Do some people freeze? Do some people.
Do some people overcompensate?
[00:43:18] Speaker B: Big time. Big time. Some people freeze, don't talk at all. Some people shout. It's like they. They removed their sight. So they think, oh, I'm going to start shouting now. It's like, no, let's. Let's not do that. But I think your. Your world gets extremely small. I tell people that, you know, when I. Let's say we're at a round table with 10 people at the table, I tell people that once the blindfolds go on, I kind of only talk to the person on my left and the person on my right, and that's it.
Because if you try having conversations with anyone beyond that, it's very difficult because you don't have the visual cues of this person's looking at me unless you shout, hey, Shona, how are you doing? And you're across the table for me, then you might shout back. But then if you hear other people at the table talking, you're like, wait, are they talking to me? And so it's. It's a very difficult experience. And it puts you in a B1's shoes who's totally blind. And that's kind of what they go through every single day and every social experience. And so I even teach the. The servers who serve us the meal say, when you come up, tap my shoulder and ask me if I, you know, if I'm done with my meal. Or tap my shoulder and say, I'm putting your next plate down. Because if you just say, hey, I'm putting your next plate down. I don't know if you're talking to me or someone else at the table. I have no idea. So it's a. It's a very interesting experience. And yes, everybody takes it differently Some people get really quiet, some people get really loud. Some people want to give up. Some people say that they didn't break that, that wall until 30 minutes into the meal. Or some people say, I felt good until 45 minutes and all of a sudden I felt extremely uncomfortable because it's been so long that. Is it ever going to stop?
Yeah, it's a really interesting experience, I think.
[00:44:56] Speaker A: I love that in contrast to the what's in it for me aspect, because that's more along the lines of them having to appreciate somebody else's experience.
[00:45:06] Speaker B: It's true. That's very true. And I think what a dose of perspective to dine in the dark for an hour plus. And then, you know, at the end when it's like, all right, everybody, we finished dessert. You may now take off your blindfolds. You know, the experience people have then is like, whoa, that was, that was interesting. And then we do a debrief of like, what, what did you learn from this? What was that experience like for you? And it's, yeah, it's, it's, it's really powerful.
[00:45:32] Speaker A: So your beautiful wife Ellen and two gorgeous children. How does family life look?
[00:45:38] Speaker B: Family life is awesome.
It's incredible. I play a lot less golf now. I'm on the road speaking, but get home as soon as I can after presentations, but then just very involved with my children. And I've got a four year old boy, Palmer, and a soon to be two year old boy, Beckett. And that, you know, that I, I, they're, they're very dependent on Ellen and me and we're going to work to get them to become independent. I think that I'm going to get them to see the value of interdependence sooner than most because as a visually impaired father, they see me asking for help all the time. Palmer, before he even turned four, he said, dad, what does legally blind mean? I was like, where, where did that come from? And he overheard me telling his teacher that I was legally blind. And I, I wasn't able to like sign him in and out on a sheet of paper and asked for her assistance with that. And so he overheard that and I thought that was impressive. So I talked to another guy who's got the same condition as me and he said, you know what, like, get your kids involved early. When your kids are able to read, you say, hey, we're going to bake a cake together.
Dad can't read the instructions, so you're going to read the instructions to dad and we're going to bake this cake together as a unit. And so I think experiences like that are really going to open my boy's eyes to the power of interdependence and realizing that, yes, they should be independent, but interdependence is really the pinnacle.
[00:47:04] Speaker A: I was going to ask if they helped you out and worked together on that, so that's adorable. Have you done that yet? I mean, four might be a little young, but. Have you baked the cake yet?
[00:47:15] Speaker B: We haven't baked the cake. They bake the cake with mom or did they do with dad, But I'll have them help me in different aspects, different avenues of things, and I'll walk them to a restaurant together. And Palmer's not at the age where he can read things perfectly yet or anything, but we'll. We'll work on things together, and he'll help me in different ways where I'll say, hey, what letter does that start with? Or what. What does this say? And. Or what? Like what. What do you see here?
And they're. They're my helpers in that way. But as Palmer gets to an age where he can read, that's. That's when we'll do those things for sure.
[00:47:46] Speaker A: That's. That's fun stuff to look forward to.
[00:47:48] Speaker B: It really is.
[00:47:50] Speaker A: And that in that aspect, your kids get to spend time with you, too, in the same way you did get to spend with your parents.
[00:47:57] Speaker B: It's true. It is true. And I think I have to be more vulnerable as someone who's legally blind. And I think them just seeing that, I mean, more. Your kids hear what you say. Yes, but they really see what you do in public and how you say certain. Like what. How you interact with the world. So in me being vulnerable and telling people, you know, when I'm at a restaurant, like, hey, I'm legally blind, Are you able to assist me with this?
They. They see me asking for that support and. And me not feeling less than in doing so. I think it's something that's definitely going to rub off on them in a good way.
[00:48:32] Speaker A: The other thing you're teaching them through this is empathy, too.
[00:48:35] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I agree.
I agree. And it's like, how. I guess the question is, how do you teach your children empathy without having a disability or something? You know, that's probably the challenges.
Because I'm visually impaired, I'm teaching them empathy because they are interacting with it every day.
How do you teach that to somebody who isn't interacting with that every day is probably the challenge.
[00:48:58] Speaker A: I guess that's. That's yeah. And that, that. That will be something I will dwell on. That is an interesting concept.
[00:49:05] Speaker B: You should do a dining in the dark with your players.
[00:49:08] Speaker A: Oh, I'd love to. In fact, I, you know, as you were talking about it, I'm like, they need to do this, they need to do this. And interdependence is something that we talk about. And I think they move through and I think every sports team or group of individuals, hence why, I'm sure this is why you are so popular as a speaker. Every group moves through sort of being dependent. You start a job, you don't know anything.
You've got to work towards being independent. Then you've got to get to know your co workers or your teammates and figure out how you can feed off each other to be better than if you were in your own silo. So these concepts are all entirely practical. I'd love to do a dining in the dark. I'll get back to you and tell you how it went. But I think it's.
That would be extremely powerful for them.
What's next for you? What are your plans and what are your hopes for the future?
[00:49:56] Speaker B: Next for me is always speaking. I love it keeps me busy.
It's a really interesting career path, one where I'm able to, yeah, I'm on the road a decent amount, but when I'm home, I'm home and I get to spend quality time with my family.
I'm hoping to write a book in the not too distant future. That's been a process.
You know, you do speaking engagements and folks say, hey, we'll buy 500 copies of your book. And I'm like, well, I don't have one yet. So that's something that's in the works. And it'll definitely be around the concept of interdependence. And I can go deeper in a book than I can in a keynote.
But I guess my hope for the future is hopefully we can get rid of the stigma of asking for help and realize as, as Americans or just in the world, this idea of interdependence is, is the pinnacle. And we shouldn't stop at independence and realizing that there is something beyond independence. I think we as a society are better when we believe in interdependence more than independence.
And you have to be an independent person to see the power of interdependence. You can't go from dependent to interdependence. That's not how it works. Like you talked about, you work your way from dependence to independence and then work your way to interdependence. But a lot of people stop at independence thinking that that's it. But I hope. My hope for the future is that more people buy into the idea of interdependence and realize that personally, professionally, it's far better to be interdependent than to be independent.
[00:51:27] Speaker A: Yes, you're speaking to the converted, but I hope even just one or two people will embrace this more fully. Because of you doing this today, I'm very thankful to you, Jeremy. Thank you for leading the charge and sharing your story. So it is very powerful and I look forward to letting you know how our Dining in the Dark experience goes with the team. However we manage to make that happen. And then when that book is written, you'll have to come back and we'll talk about that.
[00:51:55] Speaker B: I'd love that. Thank you so much for having me. Thanks to Rich for making the connection and making this happen. It was a great experience. Thank you so much. Shona, you thank.
[00:52:21] Speaker A: This has been Infinite Human with me. Sharon o' Kerr until next time, keep challenging yourself and make others better along the way.
